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A vibrant discussion on virginity

When Kushubuoo used to appear on the silver screen, I am told, that her ardent fans in the front row used to  jump , dance, whistle  and clap.  I believed the news.
When,  Kushboo canvassed for Kalainger’s candidates, I am told again, that  the ilanjers ( youngsters ) 0f Chennai swirled, smelling her scented sari. I believed that news too..
But I CANNOT believe what I see before my eyes : An eighty plus man of indisputable intelligence  carrying an  elephant size orthodox ideas on his head, quoting kushboo  to support his call to youngsters to consult a lawyer and prepare a notorized document before going for nitchitarthasm.
” Khushboo, declared in public that in India, to her knowledge and information, not a single educated woman is a virgin on her marriage day”.

Who is Kushuboo ? Amartya Sen’s statistics  adviser ? Aadhaar card recorder? She is not even a census worker ! She is a cinema actor. What is her place in our discussion here ? Why should her charisma attract the veteran to drag her here ?
Should we, responsible family heads, who have sons and daughters of marriageable age, go by what she blabbers ? Accept that  as Vedavaakyam and ask our children to enter into a pre-matrimonial, signed, stamped, notorised agreement ?   And how do you accept ‘ her knowledge and information’ as a guideline for our youngsters ?

Marriage is based on belief. Human life is based on belief. If a man or woman is determined to deviate from the correct path, even one hundred written documents will not deter them.

When I go to see a girl for my son, 

” Kozhanthai kku chamkka theriyumo ? can she cook ?”. That would be my first question as I am eager that my son should not starve, she should not starve.

“Theriyumae, my daughter is expert in cooking noodle ” The proud mother will claim. 

” Parma santhosham, Very good ” I will  reply pushing a sweet chip into my mouth ,” as long is she doesn’t faint at the sight of the cooking burner, I am happy. My daughter or DIL will train her”.

“Kozhanthai padduvalo -can she sing ?” my next question.

” Oh, Latest Hindi song kelungo, first classa paduval’ proud mother again. ” she sings cinema songs well “

” Oh, more than enough, I can teach her Carnatic music”  I will give an eye-signal for the boy and girl to talk in privacy  and try to know about each other. I will move away from the scene  with my chellapetty, betel mix casket and keep an eye on what is happening in the assembly. .

If one of you in my group venture to ask the girl whether she had slept with anyone before, I will throw my vettilai petty at your head and you will never again take the risk of another pon parkal.

And your fear that American culture is invading India and gays will parade through the Kasi streets or garland Kanchi Kamakshi is all wrong. It is our culture that is overflowing in America. I had dinner this evening in Dr Kitambi’S house. There were a few other doctors too, all settled here for the past 30-40 years. They allo say that if west attacked India with their weapons earlier,we are now invading the West with our intellectual power and China with their products. Temples are coming up wherever there is an Indian enclave, they say. I myself have seen several Temples coming up. Last  Saturday I attended a sastha prethy in Tampa. Next Saturday Kitambi is organizing a Tyagraja aaradhana. Last month he organised a dance program with all blind youngsters from Bangalore. I will send you the video clippings. you will be really happy. Completely blind children between 10-20 playing  kolattam and other dances. This is not Kushuboo type certificate. 

And as I told you earlier, insinuations are not the accepted instruments for arguing in a friendly forum of dignified men and women.

And Brahmanothama!  How long are  you going to talk about Periachies and Muniyandees ?  Leave them to enjoy their toddy in their huts. Don’t go near them. Your sudham will vanish ‘sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo’

Thanks again for joining me in this enjoyable discussion. I love your prose; you love my dialogue. you love my women characters. Let our members have some fun.
Ocala, Florida
Jan 28, 2012
Dear fellow-Iyers, fellow-Brahmanas and fellow-Pattars
I heartily welcome my loving and respectful humble anujan Sri Sivasubramanian Perinkulam’s further demand:-  “Marriages and Divorces —  What’s this?”  What he really means is “Virgins and vamps  — What’s This?”
I have answered him before, quite nicely, and I shall be happy to answer him again, even more nicely:-  This is the reality in this world today.  Nothing more.  Nothing less.
Living in the United States of America, pulling the wool over your own eyes does not negate facts happening all around you.  “Pre-nups” are the norm.  Preparing for divorce before even solemnising the marriage is the norm.
Most anti-husband pre-nups are drawn up by unscrupulous lawyers to victimise the husband.  If you have not kept track of the happenings in the divorce courts of USA, then you will certainly deny, as you emphatically do now, that the Elizabeth-Taylor culture prevails.  Equally will you deny that chastity in men and women before marriage, virginity (or Brahmachaaryam as we Brahmanas term it) is a rare gem.
You are entitled to believe, and preach and teach, that all’s wonderful, all is pure as the driven snow, no sin or deceit exists, in marriages in India or in the USA, or in the world.  Also, that no divorces exist (or should exist), that marriage is forever and a day.  You are fully in line with the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church and the High Anglican Church.  But not the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints, or the myriads of Free Churches.
The ugly fact is:-  The American culture of permissiveness (mis-named “broadmindedness”) is spreading like wildfire throughout India.  We shall soon see in Varanasi, Rishikesh, Ramesvaram, Guruvayoor, Sringeri and Kanchipuram, gay parades mimicking those in San Francisco and in New York.  We shall eventually see gay priests and gay priestesses in our temples.  Preceded by agitation for freedom for gays since “all gods are equal”, “all men and women are co-equal.”  The grand and glorious culmination of Westerrn Universalism?
You might have forgotten that the once-wildly-popular cinemactress in Tqamizh films, a Muslim woman with the screen name of Khushboo, declared in public that in India, to her knowledge and information, not a single educated woman is a virgin on her marriage day.  That is “inside information” for you.  The Indian Courts upheld her right to say so.
That is what you find confirmed in connection with proceedings in the divorce courts around the world.
Of course, “women are not that bad.”  Those who are good, are very, very good;  and those who are bad are horrid. But our esteemed and educated New Prophet-Saviours condemn outright all “good” women.  You condemn them for accepting good aedice and attiring themselves in traditional “kosha-podavai” on solemn religious occasions.  You condemn them for praying to their own gods and goddesses, as they have done for generations.
Concurrently, you praise and support those who publicly and vociferously advocate that young Dvija men and girls must marry those who are outside all varnas.  You condemn those who advocate that these marry within their own varnas.  You smear and sneer at those who dare to stick by their traditional Brahminic practices day in and day out.  You praise and support those who reject all these as out-of-date and obsolete.  You condemn the notion that only Brahmanas should be priests in the sanctum sanctorums of traditional Hindu temples and recite Veda mathrams before the duly installed deities there.  You concurrently praise and support the movement to equate non-Hindu deities to traditional Hindu ones, implying that Muniandy should replace Lord Shiva and that Periyaatchee should replace Durga in all our temples.
If I have touched a raw spot, by waving a red flag of caution needed by Brqhmin bachelors in making an important lifetime decision, that was to draw attention to the existence of warts on the face of some way-out preachers and teachers.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
USB POST dtd  jan 28
I am ashamed to observe that a Brahmin in his eighties , a scholar, a man of maturity and wisdom, a doyen in several brahmin groups and above all a husband, a father to his daughters , a brother to his sisters , use such a rude language to talk about the women folk.

Are there any Mary in your family ” who fleeced him white as snow ?’ None in mine. Among your friends or relatives ? None in mine. Why do you threaten then, the Brahmachari Bhuvaneswar, that the girls will dumb him after marriage,divorce,remarry and all such trash. Why talk to him about Elizabeth Taylor or UK, USA Aunties, who sleep , marry and divorce, even if there are any, in those countries? Talk about our girls, Iyer, Iyengar or any brahmin girls in our agraharams, towns, cities.
Even in USA, UK, Europe and Canada I have seen several old couple taking care of their partners, having lived together for several years .In Florida where I live now husbands and wives, in their eighties and nineties, come to Malls together, sometime in push carts,shop and go.
Good and bad people are there every where.
As an elder man, advice the bachelors to look for educated girls from good families, talk to the parents, tell the girl openly about them and   also tell her what they  expect from her, discuss thoroughly all personal matters, come to a good understanding and marry. “Hire an unscrupulous lawyer and sign a pre-nuptial agreement “. Will you do that for your daughter ?
It is true that in our society, there are some divorce cases unheard of, before. Let us find out why they are happening and take steps, if possible to avoid such unfortunate events in future.
Bhuvaneswar or any other Easwar, if you go by the advice of this man of negative thoughts, you will have as partner in your bed only a  notorized document !
Why will our youngsters go by the advice of ” priests and :Prophet-Saviours of Western Universalism ?”  Don’t they have their own intelligence to depend on ?
And, a word, personally to Bhuvaneswar. As an eligible bachelor from a respectable family, you should not have talked about the pre-marital virginity in this forum. Any prospective girl who has read your article will think twice before she responses to your matrimonial  request. You are sometime in a hurry, as I can see..It is OK. You will get a lovely girl as life partner, who will make you happy,who will make your parents happy. FOUR SUCH GIRLS ENTERED MY FAMILY DURING LAST YEAR AND ONE MORE IS EXPECTED THIS YEAR.
And Bhuvaneswar, women are not that bad ! I am telling you from my personal experience. THEY ARE SIMPLY GREAT!
Love and regards,
Jan 20 2012
Dear Brahmachaari Bhuvaneshwar D
How over-sensitive, naive, and innocent you are !  Or, at least, appear to be !
Iyer forums, Brahmin forums, Brahmana Association forums, Pattar forums are today full of intimidatingly righteous feminists and female chauvinistic champions who will tear you to little bits, for daring to dent their firm-held “beliefs”  —  and “non-beliefs”.
The new Vedam is this.  Married women and unmarried girls have more rights that you.  They follow the Elizabeth Taylor creed of as many marriages, divorces, re-marriages, re-divorces as possible ad nauseam (till you vomit) within a woman’s lifetime.
There are “qualified” and unqualified divorce-advisers, just as there are marriage-counsellors   —  in the USA, UK, Europe,. and elsewhere, who run “Dear Auntie” columns in women’s  magazines and columns over the Internet and lecture in TV shows.  These she-hawks advise girls and young women to catch men for “security”, i.e. sleep with them, marry them, and divorce them —  all for their money.  (“Catch a rich man,” is their hymn. “But, dump him quickly.  And, after a decent interval look for another sap.  There’s one born every minute.  A girl must live.  And live comfortably.”)   But start divorce proceedings only after giving birth to one child.
They highlight “successful” women, who have contracted marriage after marriage, done divorce after divorce  —  and accumulated tens of millions of American dollars for themselves.  Plus country homes, beach chalets, and city condominiums, country club memberships, yachts, limousines, rare works of art,jewellery, furs and dresses, carpets, and a partridge in a pear tree.
You might not have not heard the new, revised, nursery rhyme:-
“Mary had a little lamb,
She fleeced him white as snow.”
Or heard the old ballad of the badlands:-
“If you have the money, honey,
I have the taaaaaime,
But if you have no money, honey,
I have have no more taaaaaime.”
It’s either lifelong security for the woman  —  or no marriage.
What is essential before marriage is reliable professional advice and precaution.   Simply stated, this means hiring

an unscrupulous, hard-nosed but experienced lawyer, getting him to draw up for you a water-tight and leak-proof “prenup”, that is, in American lingo, a pre-nuptial agreement to be signed and sealed before a Notary Public by your husbands-to-be and yourself, laying down that in the case of a divorce, you will get 99 percent of all their worldly assets;  and that after the divorce, you will keep all your own, plus 99% of theirs.   Only remember, your lawyer will get a cut (possibly 50%) as his fees.  He might offer to waive all or part, “for a consideration”  —  if you know what that means.
All hail, women’s lib!
Do not cringe.  There are priests and :Prophet-Saviours of Western Univerfsalism today who preach and teach that  women are equal to men, all gods are equal, all faiths are equal, that temples, mosques, synagogues, churches, voodoo and vedam are all equal, everything is equal, and so are marriages and divorces, virgins,. widows and divorcees, the barren and the fecund, the emasculated and the whole.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer

From: Bhuvaneshwar D <[email protected]>
To: “[email protected]” <[email protected]>; “[email protected]” <[email protected]>; “[email protected]” <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 2:47 PM
Subject: Virginity – reg
Dear Members,
I was shocked to see a thread on a Facebook forum for iyers, on the topic of virginity not being a yardstick to measure a girl’s character. And to my dismay there were youths pouring in saying it does not matter!
I am starting a thread that has no controversy, but will be considered highly controversial.
My arguments are (were on fb) as follows:
Losing virginity before marriage for whatever reason is wrong for both men and women.
Saying that men have sex before marriage and so why not women does not make sense – two wrongs do not make a right – they only compound the heinousness of one another.
It’s like this – I am a virgin and I have every right to expect that my wife should be so; And a virgin girl has every right to expect her man to be a virgin. No doubt.
And yes, it is infidelity to the future spouse if one has sex before marriage; And saying loyalty after marriage alone counts is not sensible in our society and dharma. It may be ok in the west where it’s normal to sleep with many if not one person, before marriage and divorce allows a remarriage!
I am shocked this issue of virginity is brought up in an Iyer forum.  Someone quoted Kamasutra.
Kamasutra – it describes how a wife must be loyal to her husband, how she must be devoted to household duties etc. Are we following them as well?
In the name of modernity and freedom of speech, we cannot destroy out culture and dharma.
If someone is single, and virgin, because he wishes to be loyal to the girl he’d marry who he does not not know who it will be just as yet.
If a person “truly loved” someone and lost her/his virginity, that person must make it clear when looking for the next partner.
Just as the non-virgins insist on their right to marry regardless of their virginity status, the virgins have the right to know the sexual history of the potential partner and insist that they marry only virgins. Their rights to choose a partner with no sexual experience before should not be ignored.
One cannot say “it’s none of your business”, “My character does not depend on my virginity” etc. I will not judge someone’s character and make comments, but if a person refuses to tell me about her past, I will stop considering her as a potential life partner. you need not tell all and sundry about your virginity, but if a potential life partner asks about it – you are under an obligation to reveal, and this applies to both man and woman.
And will I judge a girl’s character by her virginity? I can only say this much on a public forum:
If I am looking to marry, and if the girl is a non-virgin/refuses to talk about her past, I would not marry her, however great her other “accomplishments” may be. It’s my personal choice of adhering to our dharma. And I have that right to politely refuse to go any further with the alliance talks on the grounds of her sexual past.
And if I am not looking to marry her, her sex – life is of no concern to me – I am not a moral police. So, I’d not judge her character on that.
There is another psychological problem here with women who do not want their sexual past to matter:
But I cannot rate the character of a person very high, who does not bother to think of being loyal to the person who she is eventually going to marry, however deep she may be in love, however a smooth talker the boy she loves might turn out to be. marry, tie the yellow thread and have sex all day, who cares?
Many of them want their loss of virginity to be accepted as they want it, regardless of what men and society think!
Now, a marriage is a union of a man and woman – if a man does not want to marry a non-virgin – that should be respected, as he is a partner and he has the right to choose to marry a virgin.
Women cannot bullishly state that men should not question their virginity and that they have the right to not disclose it to their potential partner.
If a lady is ok with losing her virginity, she should be ok with honestly saying that to the potential partner BEFORE MARRIAGE. So that the guy gets to decently move away if he wants to marry a virgin.
To hide it is a violation of the husband’s rights and emotions, when he legitimately wants to marry a virgin, himself being one.
There is a fine line of difference between asserting one’s own rights and doing so the extent of denying others theirs.
Bhuvaneshwar D
Comments :
Thanks for keeping me in the loop.
I have shared this exchange also.
Keep it up.
I am enjoying myself.
It is as thrilling as an India Pakistan ODI or T20 match.
————————————————From: Indian Homemaker <[email protected]>
Date: 29 January 2012 20:49:50 GMT+05:30
To: G Vishwanath <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SP’s dignified reply to NSI’s sarcastic mail on BD’s post on virginity.
Aww!!! That’s such a matured, sensible wise letter!! Hats off. Such sensible and respectable advice to BD who I think has heard too much advice of the other type. My admiration for SP has gone still higher. Thanks for —–sharing.
in a way in this discussion i feel u have returned their dignity back to them instead of speaking like a market product it is men who should know what to discuss in so much an elaboration in a forum like this, it is very cheap minded and stooping so low to talk about women like this, do they really need a bride when every second they watch a fair skin walking all around and salivating most times
with kind regards
sundari kannan
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