Category: A06 — DISCUSSIONS

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Our GODS and their gods

Friends,

My revered elder brother, senior to me in age and superior to me in knowledge, has once again exhibited his ‘vaachalatha’ word power and not ‘vagmithwam’, if he has any. I am always prepared for a debate but he has never given me a chance for that. He disastrously deviates from the subject and collects all sorts of trash from all over the world and throws the bundle at your face to blind fold you. But Truth cannot be blindfolded! That is the truth.
1. The Brahmasree has wandered all over the world unnecessarily in his ripe old age, to collect all irrelevant laws, in no way related to the subject and produces as supports for his arguments, when there is no argument from his side at all. Abuses are not arguments. When you come for a debate on a particular subject, as a leading criminal lawyer, which you claim you are, you should know that you have to argue on the matter. Not on how the opponent wear his tie or komanam.
You have not contrasted a single point of mine, though you have poured tons of filth on my head. 
I had quoted from Rig vedam and Adharva vedam, just one each, revelations to show that the root of our beliefs, culture is based  on the theory that God is one-eakm sat, though that Sovereignty is called by different names-vipra bahudha vadanthi. If you disagree with me on that point, in effect, if you disagree with Vedavaakyam,  you should have argued for your theory on ‘OUR GODS and their gods’ .
Instead, pitiably, you talk of the laws enacted by Norway, Brazil and another half a dozen countries! Why do you bring them here ? What is there relevance here ? I did not say a word about the western Universal-ism at all. I talked about our people, our belief, our practices.  
 
2. ” Amavasya and pornami” and another hundreds of pairs you talk about are also irrelevant, imaginary intrusions-I am not going to say a word about them, because I am not their kartha.
 My point is very,very simple. Easwara viswasam is based on our belief. We believe that the idols installed by us according to agamasastras are ideal for worship. God lives in them. A ‘pandaraam’ in your language and also a paraya or chakkiliya again in you language, install a small stone with or without a roopam, shape and With or without a mantram and BELIEVS THAT IS GOD.  Man, it is that believes that counts. How did Kannappa pull out his eyes, not one but both and paste it on a stone in the wild. ?He believed that that shapeless simple, rough stone was his GOD !! Why did Nandesswarar, whom you insulted as a mere stone statue,  move a bit, to facilitate better view for a ‘parayan’ again I use your language. Did the ‘animal’ do it for a ‘baksheeh or kaikooli’ ? I remeber you said something to that effect. Did it move at all or was it the belief of Nandanar that it moved ? 

You have not gone to Sreekanteswarm temple on a pradosham evening. You should see how the women, mostly non brahmins, weep in front of the idol at Deeparathani time.They have not learned Rudram or Chamkam, like me and you. They have only bakthi. That exactly is what the God wants.  Before the God, I repeat, all are equal. And that Supreme entity, again quoting from Rigvedam,

” Eaka eavaagnir bahuda samidha 
Eaka sooryo viswamanyu prabootha:
Eakai voshaa: sarvamidahm vibathi
Eaka vaa idam vi baboovasarvam”
For you and me that power, mahasakthi, is Mahadevar or Madurai Meenakshi;  for others, Chami and vellai, IT could be Maruthakaruppan and Mariyatha. If you don’t like those names, please keep away but do not insult ‘their gods’ . It will be helpful to remember that  that Chami and Vellayi  might be the ones to carry you and me in an ambulance to the hospital when we struggle for breath or they could  be the ones, wearing a white apron and gloves,  who cut open our heart to reactivate it.
3. I know how you made my sister in Dubai to weep by your unbrahminical remarks. Let us not talk about her.
4. Let us also not talk about your insult to Anjaneyaswamy  ‘as just one among us in the Que to worship Ramachandraswamy’ The Lord with His Divine consort lives in Hanuman’s heart. Not in yours .
” Devendradi samastha deva vinutham kakuthadootham bajeay”  – where are we poor mortals, before that Maha yogi !
5. The ‘vedamantra swaroop swamy’ may be a  ‘pandaram’, a nomad with a stick and coupeenam, but he is a ‘Jnana panditha swamy’ too. When you found a pandaram in human form standing behind the Lord  to serve him,Your brahmanatwam came to the fore front. Your bakthi should have.
6.I have requested you several times not to touch my Kunjammalu, Kamu,Parsurama vaadhyar, Ammalu and several other imaginary characters. They are sacrament to me as are to several of my readers. Visit my website and see the ‘comments’ column, if you want to oppose this statement. Kunjammalu, though an imaginary character, is intelligent, a Sanskrit teacher. She is not a fool to tolerate if the tottering old man misbehaves with her.
7. India is my country. I lived there for over 70 years. I have my own people and property still there. I am now in US as my children do not want   me to live all alone in a big house in Hyderabad,  while my four grand children, three  children and several other relatives are here. I may go back any time to India and comeback here. Aren’t  you too live in a foreign country now ?
8.About my patriotism or belief in God, I do not require a certificate from any one.They are purely personal matters. We are in a common forum and let us discuss any points on common interests. Abusing the opponent is not in common interest. You have the habit of belittling every one. All of us, has some amount of intelligence may not be to your level. No need also for that .
9. You did not have the basic courtresy of wishing me for my 75th birth day. Nothing surprising, as we know about you. But when I came to your gate with a picture in my hand of palabhishekam to the Brihadeeswaraswamy and a New year greeting in my lips, you insulted me.
That was an insult to my Mahadevar. You should have got up and recited panchakdharam if not Rudram.
In Kiratham kathakali, there is a scene, where, unable to tolerate the pain of Her husband in the form of a hunter, from the arrows of Arjuna, Parvathy in the form of a hunter woman curses Arjuna, ‘noonameyyunna banangalookayum soonamai poka Pkava” Let all the arrows you throw at my Lord, turn into flowers!
Let all the  arrows you aim at other members of this forum and other fora, turn into flowers.
I respect your wisdom.You and me do not have many sunrises and sunsets to witness.
“To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late.”
Divert your mind and energy towards that ”SAT”, which  “vipra bahudha vadanthi “, instead of abusing others.
Namskarams
Sperinkululam,
Ocala, Florida.

Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 06:19:03 -0800
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Iyer123] Our gods, their gods–and Western Universalism
To: [email protected]; [email protected]

Dear fellow-Iyers
We, Iyers, Iyengars Brahamanas, Pattars seem to have a sudden New God in the Firmament  —  and, in oder to expound his faith and doctrines, we have also a New Prophet-cum-Saviour, who is EVR and EMSN rolled into one.  

 My little note of five short paragraphs has evoked from this New Prophet-cum-Saviour a torrential and highly emotional outburst of twenty-six paragraphs spread over four sheets of A4-size paper all forcefully set out in thick bold black print  —  almost shouting from the top of the temple flagpole to drown out the truth.  To him, the Truth hurts, of course.  The absolute Truth hurts absolutely.  Especially when set out soberly and somberly, in small print. 
One of our more prolific contributors, this Prophet-cum-Saviour has newly discovered, out of the cerulean blue sky, WESTERN UNIVERSALISM, whose basic tenets are:-
Eternal Religion gives way to enacted law.
All men and women are the same. 
All temples and places of worship are the same. 
All gods, daemons, and spirits are the same. 
All religions, faiths, creeds are the same. 
Everything is equal to everything else;  no distinction exists anywhere, in anything, at any time; to any degree  —   never existed before, will never exist in the future.  Utopia everywhere.  God is in his Heaven (or Hell), and All’s Right With The World ! 
Our newly-self-christened Prophet-cum-Saviour will slash you to slivers of meat if you dare to disagree, or even think otherwise.   This is the Brave New World!   His Brave New World. 
But is it?
Enacted law in Norway says that Anurupa and Sagarika Battacharya from Kolkata, parents of a three-year-old boy and a one-year-old girl, and who work and live in Norway, are guilty of unforgivable crime against their two babies.  Acting accordingly to this enacted law, the authorities forcibly removed the tiny tots from their parents’ custody and proximity, and placed them under alien foster care  —  to be reared “properly”. They are still in custody.  The law is adamant that it is right. 
The hapless parents’ great crimes?  They fed their children by their own hand, because the children did not know how to feed themselves.  They also let the children share their own beds at night. 
Enacted law in Australia said that parents of aborigine children  —  the black-skinned race existed and flourished, prayed and played together, cooked, ate, cured their illnesses through their own native medicines, long before white-skinned Europeans in the British Isles learned not to live in pits in the ground, learned not to cover their naked bodies with woad [blue dye] to catch the sun and protect their skins from the cold, learned not to hunt for grubs in rotting wood to feed themselves  —  are genetically incapable of rearing children, and that all children born to aborigines should be captured like wilk animals and be transported away to special camps, there to be “brought up properly”.  All the children died in captivity.  As did many aborigine parents “in the Outback”, pining for their absent progeny. 
Enacted law in the United States of America says that the brown Native Americans do not own the land or the resources under it, but the White Invading Europeans do.  Therefore the Native Americans are confined to small undeveloped “reservations” in inhospitable and inaccessible places of the country, and forced to fend for themselves. 
Under the doctrine of “The only good Indian is a dead Indian,” enacted law in the United States of America gave White Invading Europeans the right, under God, to hunt down and kill off in one-sided genocidal war after genocidal war, in holocaust after holocaust, from the shores of the Atlantic Ocean to the shores of the Pacific Ocean, every Native American who dared to oppose them. 
Read, for example, “Indians and Other Americans  —  Two Ways of Life Meet” 274 pages, by Harold E Fey & D’Arcy McNickle, read “I Will Fight No More Forever  —  Chief Joseph and the Nez Perce War” 398 pages, by Merrill D. Beal, and read “Men To Match My Mountains – The Monumental Saga Of The Winning Of America’s Far West” 562 pages, by Irving Stone.  You will even find accounts of cannibalism  —  white men killing and eating the flesh of their Native American guides and porters after crossing the Sierra Nevada, in the last-mentioned book.
 Enacted law in the United States of America gave White Invading Europeans the right to poison the wells, streams and other drinking and cooking fresh water resources of the Native Americans, the right to toss into the latter’s tepees and wigwams pieces of cloth and blanket deliberately infected with smallpox, a hitherto unknown disease in the New World, and against which the Native Americans had no defence.  The right to burn down tepes and wigwams, and destroy stock of food and clothing, after forcingt the Native Americans to fglee form their settlements.  The right togun down all bison, elk, deer, and other animals on which the Native Americans depended for food.
 Enacted law in the United States of America gave White Invading Europeans the right to slaughter Native American women on sight, the right to string up their naked bodies high up between two poles with their torsos stretched out by ropes ties to their wrists , the right to cut off their breasts, and make tobacco pouches out of the dried breasts, and to flaunt these prizes in the bars and saloons of the country.
 Enacted law in Saudi Arabia prohibits praying to anyone other than Allah, even in the innermost privacy of your own home, even if you are not a Muslim.  You can be put to death for defying the law.
 Enacted law in Singapore prohibits the importation of even one stick of chewing gum, or one stick of cigarette.  You will be swiftly hanged by the neck until you are dead, after due process of law, if you are found in possession of 12 grammes of heroine or similar narcotic drug, even if you are only in transit and do not exit from your plane on the airport runway or exit from your ship in the harbour, and do not set foot at all on solid Singapore soil. 
Enacted law in India has authorised seizure without compensation, of the ancestral fertile agricultural lands of hundreds of thousands of expert Brahmin agriculturists and foresters, lands on which they and their families depended for a living, and had done so for generations.
 Enacted law in India has authorised fragmentation into unviable little plots of these seized agricultural lands, and to distribute them among individuals who had formerly been employed to till the fields or otherwise to help in tilling the land, planting, watering and harvesting crops, under supervision of the owners and their families.
Enacted law in Brazil allows white wold-be settlers and ranchers to machine-gun down and to slay by machete any natives they meet in the deep dark jungles of the Amazon basin, to seize their land, to cut down all trees, and turn the land into huge ranches for raising beef cattle and construct abattoirs and beef-packing plants.
And so the list goes on. 
Our Prophet-Saviour of Western Universalism waxes eloquent on “the theory that there is only one god.”  He trots out the tired tirade quoting our Rig Vedam.  He concludes passionately with the fervent supplication:  “Differentiating between (our god and their gods) will only split our society further and isolate us more and more.”
 What noble sentiments. What self-evident truths, axioms, to be accepted without proof! 
Is all this fiery oratory only to flay practicing Brahmanas and practicing Hindus who pray to “our gods”?
 Will our red-blooded Universalist convince the Protectors of the Holy Places of Islam; convince the Pope in Rome and his Cardinals; convince the Defender of the Faith sitting on the Throne of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (whose ancestors were Emperors of India and Empresses of India) and the Archbishop of Canterbury, convince the Grand Patriarchs of the Orthodox Christian Churches, convince the quarrelling hundreds of reformist and independent Christian sects, convince the Heads of the Hasidim, of the Orthodox, of the Reformist, and of the Conservative Schools of Judaism,  —  to accept his theory that there is only one god, so they should all drop their differences and merge into one whole Soup Supreme together with Hindus, as was the case before Judaism arose, and give birth to the Nazarene creed and its brood of dissidents, and gave birth to the Mecca-centric followers of Muhammad?  Convince them to demolish their basilicas, cathedrals, and churches,  their mosques and mausoleums, their synagogues and prayer-houses, their grottoes and cave-shrines?
 Would it appease our red-blooded tomtom-beating Universalist a bit, if I were to gently remind him that he appears incapable of distinguishing between “non-Brahmins” entitled to Upanayanam and all that confers, such as Kshathriyas and Vaishyas, and those falling outside the four varnas such as worshippers of the phalanx of “Karuppan, Karuppaayee, Maareeaayee, Madurai Veeran, Muthallathu-raaja, Mooneeaandee,  Aatchee, Kaava,-theivam, Ayyanaar, Naachiappan, Naachiammayee, and many, many more”?
 “Our gods and their gods  — What’s this?”  Our rhetorician demands.
 This is the reality of this world today. Nothing less.  Nothing more.
 Of course, he is free to reject the evidence before his (closed?  Partially closed?) eyes, and dwell in the realm of  fantasy.  He is free to say that all men and women are the same, all temples and places of worship are the same, all gods, daemons, and spirits are the same, all religions, faiths, creeds are the same.  He is free to insist that:
 Voodoo and Vedam are the same
So are the Devil and the deities
So are Ganga and Koovum rivers
So are Kashmir and Kanyakumari
So are Aani and Maarghazhi months
So are Amaavaasya and Pournami
So are the ballet and Bharathanaatyam 
So are Idi Amin and Nelson Mandela
So are James Joyce and Siegfrid Jung
So are Pidgin and elegant English
So are Rafflesia and the rose
So are the vamp and the virgin 
So are koorkan-kizhangu and Elephant Yam
So are plywood and sandalwood
So are vinegar and wine
So are rice powder in water and cows’ milk 
So are Singapore and Shanghai
So are Ocala, USA and Osaka, Japan
So are faeces and manure
So are Eskimos and Papuans
 He is free to insist that, in his Brave New World of Equality and Universalism, all metals are equal;  therefore lead is equal to tin is equal to copper is equal to silver is equal to gold.  Similarly, all carbons are equal.  Charcoal is equal to anthracite is equal to diamond.  His logic is irresistible  — or, in his own words, muddled “because of superstition and stupidity and also greed for free flush (whatever that means – non-coin-operated modern toilets?).” 
When all is said and done, what can you possibly make of one who cannot distinguish between his distorted imagination of my allegedly “visiting the Pazhani temple, with freshly collected cow milk from brahmin cow”, and the truth, which I related as to how I was cheated by the rascally paal-kudam supplier at Pazhani Adivaaram who had surreptitiously filled the vessel with water mixed with rice-powder, and boldly cheated me by assuring me that it was fresh cows’ milk milked that very morning?
 Also, how can you possibly rely on a man’s ability to tell the truth, when he cannot distinguish between my praising a Brahmin married woman in Dubai who faithfully observes all our rituals such as Vara-Lakshmi Nonbu and is a dharma-pathni to her Brahmin husband, and my condemning a totally different woman who uses the foulest of languages on the Internet, so much so that even our tolerant moderator had to excise the entirely of her two e-mails when I quoted them verbatim to disprove our Prophet-Saviour’s false accusations?
 Further, how can you be sure of where a man’s loyalty lies or where his orientation is, when he broadcasts that every Shiva-Lingam has a monkey’s head and face protruding from the top and a monkey’s tail protruding from behind, since his unshakeable belief is that Lord Shiva is an avathaaram of Hanuman, and vice-versa?  How can you trust him when he sneers at a Brahmin priest pouring water on the Shiva-Lingam which, he smirks, bears the River Ganga on its head  —  so pouring water on the head of Gangadhar is eminently stupid?
 And how pious and god-fearing is a man who goes to Shiva Temples in south Kerala during festivals, to meet buxom young black outcaste women (in snow-white saris) at night and there, after a private stroll hand-in-hand through the deserted temple kitchens,  hugs them to his chest, murmuring “I like you,” in the darkness?
 The final sting in the tail  —  or the utmost acme of hypocrisy.  “We survive only if our country survives,” he declaims.  Which country?  Then United States of America where he is comfortably settled?  Truncated, riven, vivisected India  —  or what remains of it now  —  which he fled? Canada and Vancouver, from where he continued his diatribe against Brahmins?  Some new destination?   Pre-historic Gondwanaland?  Bharatha Varsham?  Bharatha Khandam?
Although his ingrained anti-Brahminism surfaces every now and then, what about the survival of Brahmins as a community?  What about the survival of Brahmanas, Kshathriyas, and Vaishyas, as those entitled to access to the Vedas?  How about the survival of Brahmanas, Kshathriyas, Vaishyas, and Shoodras as the four varnas mentioned in our Vedas?  How about the survival of Vedic Dharmam?  Sanathana Dharmam?
 S Narayanaswamy Iyer
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Friends,

Even a lay man with peripheral acquaintance with our scriptures knows that the basic concept of our belief,  philosophy, poojas  and  Aacharanushtanas  is based on the theory that there is only ONE GOD 
‘ekam sat’  but that single supreme power is called by different names.  

When we worship before a deity of  Vishnu or Siva or Markatha valli thayar or Mariamman, the inimitable gem shines in our heart,

“Aakasath pathitham thoyam, yadha gatchadi saagarm
Sarvadeva namskara Easwaram prathigatchathi”

As water which falls from the sky flows to ocean, our namaskarams to  all Devas reach Kesava.

A number of sookthams can be quoted to support the above statement. 

ഇന്ദ്രം മിത്രം വരുണ മഗ്നി മാഹു –
രഥോദിവ്യസ്സ സുപര്ണോ ഗരുത്മാന്‍
ഏകം സദ്വിപ്രാ  ബഹുദാ വദന്തി
അഗ്നിം യമം മാതരിശ്വാനമാഹു :Indram, Mitram, Varunam, Agnim, aahu-
radhodivyassa suparno garutmaan
Eakam sat vipra bahuda vadanthi
Agnaim, yamam, maadariswanamaahu:Meaning : This God is called Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni , Garuda.
It is eakam and sat- The learned call it by different names
Agni, Vayu, Yaman etc.
ഋഗ്വേദം : Rigvedam 
——
സ  ഏഷ  എആഷ  ഏക വൃത്ഏക ഏവ
സര്‍വെ അസ്മിന്‍ ദേവാ ഏകവൃതോ  ഭവന്തി
Sa easha eka eak vrut eaka eava
Sarvey asmin Devaa eak vruto bhavanthi’
He is ONE. ONLY ONE; all  devas become ONE in him.
Atharva vedam
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I was therefore surprised, when a senior co- member, not  an X,Y, OR Z but a vedic scholar known for his wits, wisdom and vocabulary, talked in terms of our Gods and their gods ! Proclaims he, ‘encourage them to build their own temple for gods.’ .
 He also says,  “The “non-brahmins” have their own gods.  Karuppan, Karuppaayee,”:..
No,no,no, Bramashree. Not all non brahmins. There are very few who worship karuppan and karuppayye.The rest, the majority of them, come to worship our ‘appans and aayees’, some observing fasting and other strict discipline for more than a month, walking mails bare-footed, with unalloyed bakthi. Those who go to Vaishnodevi, Varnasi, Rishikesh, Kedaranath, Badrinath,Madhura and so many other great shrines are ‘non- brahimns’ and you should go there once to see their bakthi. They may or may not have poonaal visible out side but deep in their heart, undivided devotion overflows. Otherwise they would not have spent their hard earned money for long trips which some time are risky too. Do you want all the Kshatriyas, Vysyas and soodras not to enter ‘our ‘ temples’ ! If the Nair Service society or any other non-brahmin organisations in the North, West or East read this post asking them to have their own temple—-My God ! save my beloved swajathi!.
 You can be prosecuted under law for such a disparaging statement. And being a leading lawyer you should know this..
Cherunattori Bagavthi is my kuladeivam. She holds prominently a sword in her right hand. Sword is a destructive weapon. All ‘our gods’ have some weapon or other in their hands..’Our ‘ Vishnu is ‘gadhi, saarnghi, chakri and in fact sarvapraharnayudha, Maha prabhu. Our Devi is ashtoubujanghi ,with eight hands wearing weapons in all the hands. Wearing sudha vastram, applying viboothi all over our body and then chandanam and kumkumam over it in layers,we worship her as  ‘ madhu mamsopaharaini’. . Innocent lambs who cry for their life were sacrificed beofre the Kali maatha in Calcutta and perhaps that inhuman activity is still continuing.Kali in that temple sits protruding her tongue, which they say is asking for blood.There is a Mata temple in Gohati, which I had visited but forgot the name, consecrated by no lesser soul than Adi Samkaracharaya, where birds were sacrificed. Even Kolkota Kali deity too was consecrated by Snkaracarya. In all those temples,poojaries are Brahmins, devotees mostly are ‘non brahmins’. So our Gods too demand blood sacrifice !
Because of superstition and stupidity and also greed for free flush, these ugly practices have entered our temple worships..Let us correct them. if we can.
‘Entering into trances and shouting and screaming, including mass hypnosis and hysteria’ is not the practice only in ‘their temples’. Go to Sasthapreeti. When one among us wearing poonal screams and shouts, it becomes the instant manifestation of the God  ‘Sastha vandhirukkar ‘. You know why? It is in that hysterial state that the God in sweating human form, hands over a plantain leaf bundle for our kalan, olan, avial, iditchu pizinja payasam, valia pappadam etc,etc.!!
This is not the first time that the learned brahimn is using the word ‘pandaram’. When he visited the Pazhani temple,along with this family donning freshly washed panchagatcham, with freshly collected cow milk from brahmin cow, he was shocked to see a pandram standing  near the idol, ‘kondango oothareen’ he demanded, it seems!! Our friend saw only that pantaram and forgot to watch the lovely face of Murugan or his flag or mount. This pantaram word  remains me, a folk prayer heard in childhood, ‘Andi pantaram unnai ventikontanae’ I hope that the other friend who introduced this topic will not call Pazhani Muruka Perumal as a ‘kshudra deavatha ‘ .
There are several temples in Tamil Nadu, installed by Sidhas,who are not Brahmins, being worshipped by Veda brahmanals.There are several Devi kshetrams, prominent ones, powerful ones, where poojaries are non brahmins. Each temple follows certain padathi. Namboodiries in Kerala Temples or potties in some,Deekshithars in Chitambaram etc.
I do not know  where ‘babies, three-to-five-year-old girls, virgins’ and other ‘catches’ are sacrificed.,I will report to the police if you specify the names of the temples where ‘kolaiveri’ is still in vogue.
And above all, please,please, remember that differentiating between our deivam and their deivam will only split our Hindu society further and isolate us Tamil brhmins more and more.
As mentioned by me earlier, we survive only  if our country survives.
Love and regards,.
sperinkulam
Ocala, Baltimore.
Jan16, 2012
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Dear fellow-Iyers
Just two comments:
One.    If you go round any city looking only for smelly latrines, you are sure to find a few.  If, on the other hand,  you look for clean kitchens, halls, dining rooms, living rooms, bedrooms, you will find a great many more  —  many more than you can count.  So with Brahmanas.
Two.  The “non-brahmins” have their own gods.  Karuppan, Karuppaayee, Chinna-karuppan, Periya-karuppan, Maareeaayee, Madurai Veeran, Mooneeaandee, Aatchee, Chinnaatchee, Periyaaatchee, Kaaval-theivam, Ayyanaar, Chengaliyappan, Veerappan, Mooneechaamee, Karuppanchaamee, Thiroupathee, Periya-aathaa, Naachiappan, Naachiammayee, and many, many more.
These demand blood-sacrifices, whether of babies, three-to-five-year-old girls, virgins, goats, sheep, fowl, or other catches.  They also demand offerings of toddy, arrack, chaaraayam, liquor distilled from reeds and grasses, from seeds and grains, from tree-bark, tree-roots, and other intoxicating liquids.
They require display and offering of torture instruments, such as ropes and cahins, cutting blades, swords, sharpened spears of bamboo, wood and metal, tridents, barbed spears, curved and double-edged long knives, cat-o-nine-tails, thumb- and finger-crushers.  The list goes on and on.
They require the infliction of pain, and the entering into trances and shouting and screaming, including mass hypnosis and hysteria, as essential parts of the worship ritual to these non-brahmin gods.
Why not encourage them to build their own temples to their own gods, and leave ours alone?  Then they can proceed to train anyone and everyone to become pandaarams there.  And drag in the crowds by display of superior techniaque and skill, not limited to “possession by spirits”  and “exorcism,” of such possessed individuals.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
Comments:
Namaskarams.  As usual, you hit the nail on the head; but I am sceptical whether this is going to change the outlook of the individual.Regarding the Gauhati temple, I presume that you are referring to Kamakhya Mandir.  This temple witnesses animal sacrifices every day.  Despite this, large number of devotees visit this temple and I had also visited in 2003.  This temple is supposed to be in the place where the Yoni of the Mother had fallen.  Hence the monthly periods are rigorously followed in this temple and since this is supposed to the Principal Temple in Assam, when Kamakhya is closed for Monthly Periods, all the other temples are also kept closed.regardssaikrishnan
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You have written all that I have wanted to write.
I prepared a manuscript condemning this co-member’s e-mail, but I stopped because he is a Vedic Scholar and a very old man, so as a token of respect and I confess, fear of curse, I kept quiet.
I agree with all that you say.
Love and regards,
Bhuvaneshwar D
That was a mature and dignified reply to an arrogant snob.
I love his prose.
Never much cared for the content.
Regards
GV
Dear Sir,
Namaskarams.  As usual, you hit the nail on the head; but I am sceptical whether this is going to change the outlook of the individual.
Regarding the Gauhati temple, I presume that you are referring to Kamakhya Mandir.  This temple witnesses animal sacrifices every day.  Despite this, large number of devotees visit this temple and I had also visited in 2003.  This temple is supposed to be in the place where the Yoni of the Mother had fallen.  Hence the monthly periods are rigorously followed in this temple and since this is supposed to the Principal Temple in Assam, when Kamakhya is closed for Monthly Periods, all the other temples are also kept closed.
regards
saikrishnan
NB:  Hope you will be pardon me for pointing out- your mail could have been edited to weed out the errors in spellings.  Normally I love reading your mails ( this mail is no exception ) and hence thought of pointing out this.  My apologies to you in case I have offended you.
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You know only how to count the thread on the chest

Friends,
As usual, I am delighted and not at all surprised at the, vituperate, vulturous onslaught of my respected Anna , the great Veda Brhamana of our forum, at me. He has chosen in his wisdom, which is indisputable, to attack Sri. Mahadevan Venkitasubbaiyer also, just for the sake of his agreeing with my views as expressed in some posts. Further, he, again in his wisdom, which is indisputable, clubs us and calls us as ” two tortured Shudra (or lower) pitiful spirits, unwillingly trapped in Brahmin bodies  —  shouting, screaming, and struggling desperately to get out” .
I will not revolt if I am called a Shudra, as I know well that I am not fit to occupy the high pedestal of a Brahmana, as per the standards set by our Veda Brahmanan. But how can my spirit be lower and pitiable, I do not know. And ‘tortured’ ? How and by whom ? No God tortures as Anna threatens often and if by oversight the God had done that, will I have the capacity to sing His glory day and night ? Go to the Krishnaswamy temple at Perinkulam village. My ‘Navaneetha Krishna Navakam’ is displayed on the wall by the temple authorities and before doing that they asked me to hold that laminate board and follow the idol mounted on an elephant and do pradakshinam for the chariot which was about to be adorned by the Lord. Tears rolled from my eyes. How will you understand such sentiments and inner relationship between a Jeevatma and Paramtma ? While talking about a great soul whom millions of this country and from outside revere as a God who walked on earth, your eyes were  looking only for the “vomiting in public eggs secreted in hand-towel”. What a pity !
Yes, I pity you Anna. It is your spirit which is pitiable and not mine. All your Vedic knowledge is used only to spite others and spit at their face.
And ‘unwillingly trapped in brahmin bodies !!!” How do you know this Sir. You should be a real yogi. You seems to know much more than what I did. Oh, man! How did you know so certainly about my entry into my mother’s womb? in which corner of the Palakkad Raja’s house, where I was born, were you hiding?
And ” shouting, screaming, and struggling desperately to get out”. No Sir, never. I am happy with the way I am and I,  neither shout nor scream or struggle to come out of this body. I want to live at least your age. What a marvelous life God has given me ! Last week I had been to Bombay and Lucknow to attend a wedding and reception party and I could dance along with hundreds of men and women, boys and girls on the road, following the bride groom on the horse back and the next day I could sing ‘Kala harana mela ra Hare, Seetharama ‘ standing in front of a Rama temple in Lucknow. I can sing equally emotionally before a Karuppuchami or Ramchamay or Mariatha temple anywhere. For me, all those deities, irrespective of the names they are given, irrespective of the poojaries there, Vekuchami or Valliammai, throb with divinity. And you say, Anna that I am ‘desperately struggling to get out’  Never.
And now comes the most important part – your learned observation about my stories. I am really excited to note that a scholar like you not only read them but also has taken the trouble of criticizing them. To be frank, I consider it as a great achievement. I never knew that you are an art critic too.
About your observation on Parsumrama vadhyaar, I have only to say that a person like you who knows only to count the number of threads on the chest of a man and cannot go an inch further and definitely not deep into one’s heart, will never understand the intricacies of love . Reason is simple. You have never loved another soul nor have been loved by anyone.
So, leave my Vaadyar to his fate. People have wept after reading that story and the one on my Kamu.
But I take serious objection to your cruel treatment of my Vaikkathashtami story.*
Every letter, every sentence, every paragraph in that story is soaked in pure love, bakhthi for my Vaikkathappan. And, you , a Veda Brhamanan, like a  crow which looks for excreta alone in a heap of flowers and fruits , could see only sex in my relationship with that girl, who, like a daughter, holding my hand, moves around the temple prakaram, just because she doesn’t belong to your caste ? Hell with your caste feeling.
I was proud of you Sri. Iyer, till now. Now I am ashamed of you.  Now my spirit is  “shouting, screaming, and struggling desperately to get out” of your company.
P.S
* For the benefit of those who have not read this story,  I am reproducing it in the appendix.
Love and regards,
sperinkulam
Hyderabad,
June 13, 2011                                                                   
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 02:54:55 -0700
Subject: [Iyer123] The Walrus and the Carpenter

Dear fellow-Iyers The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking on the strand
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand
“If only it were swept away”
They said, “wouldn’t it be grand?” Sri Mahadevan Venkitasubbiar’s repeated total support of habitual master of misrepresentation Sri Sivasubramanian Perinkulam reminds me of Lewis Carroll’s immortal caricatures.  I hesitate to draw a parallel to the Semitic Scriptures’ graphic portrait of the blind leading the blind. Examples of the entwining (“I am in total agreement….”) of the inseparable twins:  “Navagraha Homam” and “Mr Sai Baba vomiting in public eggs secreted in hand-towels (video-recorded by BBC and seen by millions worldwide)” contexts. The speculation might well arise whether we have here two tortured Shudra (or lower) pitiful spirits, unwillingly trapped in Brahmin bodies  —  shouting, screaming, and struggling desperately to get out.
The chest-thumping self-described English literature all-time supreme genius and critic — who cannot distinguish between William Shakespeare’s tragic play “Macbeth” and William Wordsworth’s nature poems (the “Vernam Wood” triumph); who does not know what “aerodynamics” or “esoteric” means (the “most discussed topic in all scripture” episode);  who cannot differentiate between “lament” and “lamentation” and presumably has not even heard of the Book in the Old Testament attributed to Jeremiah (“Revenge, Oh Girls” controversy); who is unable to understand that his idol Comrade VS Achuthanandan’s “atheism” is but one aspect of “true secularism”;  who defiantly flings around words like “sophistry”,
“vituperative” and “averred” regardless of their meaning and of their relevance or suitability for use in the contexts — has no compunction against turning on, and savaging, any non-conformist comments by Sri C M Venugopal, Sri V Muralidharan, and others who dare to cross his path. 
He confuses the saintly PKR (Brahmashri P K Ramakrishnan, who inter alia painstakingly compiles the precious lists of Tamil Brahmanas) with PRR (Parachchi-Petta expert P R Radhakrishnan, who loses no opportunity to put down Brahmanas and elevate outcastes to divinity status.) (vide the recent “Ever Wiling to Join” affair.)
This “genius”, who quotes BG at the drop of a pin, is unaware of the existence of the Rig Vedam;  and rejects wholly and vehemently the authority of the Purusha Sooktham and other Vedic texts, of divine origin. 
He is unaware that the BG is but a tiny part of one battle-saga involving one of the ten avathaarams of one of three Thrimoorthis who themselves are but three manifestations (or conceptions) of the One great Parabrahmam (or Paraashakthi). Where the words of the BG apparently (or obviously) conflict with the clear proclamations of the Vedams, which is the higher authority for us to accept?
To him, the Vedic identity “Shudra” is abhorrent, abominable, detestable, and bereft of dignity;  and it emanates out of arrogance.  (By extension, all of our revered Scriptures are similarly tainted, and to be condemned.) What he really means is that, to him, it is the Vedic identity of “Brahmana” which is abhorrent, abominable, detestable, etc. His true “Shudra” being writhes in agony, imprisoned in a Brahmana body. (Like the fabled woman wailing for her demon lover?) Would Euthanasia not be a merciful release? A yeoman service, to be welcomed with wide-open arms as an end to needless suffering?
He trumpets that “to call all (non-Brahmanas) as Shudras, is an arrogant assertion…” (Do we all do that?) He does not know, or forgets, that the Vedams also recognise the existence of two other dwijas (Kshathriyas and Vaishyas).  (Yes, I have met them in real life recently.) And, he equally does not know that, far below the Shudras, are the cow-flesh consuming out-castes, non-Hindus with their own flesh-eating, alcohol-drinking, drug-taking, tobacco- and other leaf-smoking Kaaval Deivams such as horse-mounted giant Ayyanaar, Peria-Karuppan, Chinna-Karuppan, Karuppaan-chaami, Karuppaan-haayi, Periya-aathaa, Periya-Aachi, Chinna-aachi, Mathurai-veeran, Muniandi, Muthu-karuppan. (Again, yes, I have met them recently.)
His companion gleefully revels in broadcasting the juicy fiction of meeting Kuttymalu (“little woman” in Malayalam,) a snow-white sari-clad (voluptuous?) good-looking and charming outcaste Malayali woman at the Vaikkathappan (Shivan) temple in Vaikom, South Kerala, during a 12-day grand temple festival.
Magically (but not at all surprisingly), they “click” instantly; entwine hands, escape from the swirling crowds, and retire to commune in the dark shadows of the deserted temple kitchen. They then spend hours together as a cosy two-some, wandering round the temple grounds hand-in-hand, chatting and sitting under the “golden flag post”, and so on.
Before parting from the snow-white sari-clad super-friendly outcsste woman late at night, Sri Sivasubramanian Perinkulam tells his companion, “I like you, Kuttymalu,” hugs her and holds her close, and announces, “I am a beast.” (QED?)
Another dramatic modern puranic story invented for us by clever Sri Sivasubramanian Perinkulam involves an orthodox sanctified practising South Indian Brahmin priest, no less. Lo and Behold — Brahmasri Parasurama Vaadhyaar! This worthy summons a meeting of all the village “elders” under the temple flag-post, tells them a home truth or two about how Brahmins are to be despised and their way of life discarded and, wonder of wonders, gets clamorous unanimous approval to marry a Nair servant-girl half his age, and to take her into his house as his three children’s stepmother. And, of course as his bed-companion. Hip, hip, hooray! (Whether this was the traditional Nair “sambantham”, or a Brahmana “kannika-dhaanam” is not clear.
Perhaps Sri Sivasubramanian Perinkulam will favour us with a sequel in which the Nair woman’s children top all University and post-graduate examinations, attain prestigious PhD’s, travel to Ameyrikka, accumulate millions plus white Christian spouses, and return to become Chief Ministers or Governors in States in India. And Kuttymalu’s issue become Prime Minister and Federal Ministers in New Delhi, after indoctrination in the faith of their Middle East spouses and producing a brood of “genuine Indians”. Sri Sivasubramanian Peribkulam will be the revered new Veda-Vyaasa chronicling Bhaaratha-Maathaa’s new-found egalitarian Allahu-Akhbar proletariat.
Long life to the Walrus and the Carpenter of today.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
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A strong body, a strong mind, a disciplined life- these should be our first priority.

” You are going to Baltimore, we can expect good stories”- wrote a co-member from Iyer123  group, when he knew about my recent trip to USA.  I am going back to my country shortly to attend three family weddings , two in Bombay and one in Hyderabad. During this short period of two and half a month, I could write a few stories , which are generally well-accepted going by the responses received.
I hope I have done justice to the expectation of my friend who wrote to me earlier.
I could talk to a number of members of Yahoo/thath-patty groups who are in US and also could meet a few of them staying close to my children’s’ places of stay. That is the reward I get for my writings and I am really proud of that.
I will be in Chedda Nagar, Chembur on 7-8 June and at Goregaon on 22-23 June for the weddings and have sent the invitations to those whose postal addresses I have. It will be my pleasure to meet as many friends as possible during the short sojourn. The third wedding is in Hyderabad and along with the bride from Australia nearly fifty people are coming from that country to attend the wedding, on a one-month tour program. Welcome to them and welcome the foreign exchange.
More than any thing else, this camaraderie is most important and let us continue that at every level. Friendship itself is a reward. And it is a thrill to meet or at least  talk to some one, with whom you fought like ‘eliyum poochayum’ in the forum.  Even when we write harshly against any co-member or their post, let us immediately send a letter of correction and if our ego doesn’t allow us to do that,  let us  not carry our  anger and enmity to the next day nay, the next minute. After all, the forum is there not to exhibit our power of language or education ; It is a friendly group to exchange views. And our views may not be the same as that of any one else. I myself have changed my own views soon after clicking the ‘send’ button and requested the moderator to stop the circulation. Last week I wanted him to remove a comma which found a wrong place. You may call it my stupidity. You might be right, but it also shows my eagerness to present a matter as correctly as possible.
I am reproducing a mail received recently from an unknown elderly gentleman and I will tell you, at the end, why I refer his mail to you:
” My name is Perinkulam Ramanathan.  Obviously, , my father’s place of birth was Perinkulam, and there are many many Perinkulams in USA where I live.  To be exact, I am in New Jersey, where a good number of Kerala pattars reside.  But I see of course more of Tamil Iyers and Telugu families, and a lot more Hindiwallas, whose language I don’t understand.  I grew up and studied in Koduvayur where the headmaster was my chittappa, Perinkulam Venkateswara Iyer, whose son Perinkulam Natarajan is here in New Jersey.  I never learned Hindi because in the Hindi class the kids were throwing paper balls at the Hindi master.  I was the only one trying to pay attention to him.
But without the knowledge of Hindi or Gujarati, you cannot shop in Indian groceries in New Jersey.  Thanks to the Gujaratis, we have access to Indian spices and puzungal arisi without which I cannot exist.
I am probably as old as you are, but in good health, thanks to my yoga practice and yoga teaching.  I will be close to 80 years of age soon.  I want to reach that milestone and therefore I am fully active.
The doctor who gave me an annual checkup recently told me that my heart is as strong as that of a marathon runner and she declared I am perfectly healthy, which I confirm from the way I feel.
Time to go and teach a yoga class.  The Americans have perfected the art of teaching yoga even though they may not be aware of the esoteric practices of yoga which only a great yoga master like Sri Krishnamacharya (who lived 100 years) can instruct.
More later.
My congratulations to you for the impeccable way you express the language.  Hats off to you.
Ramanathan
Feel free to write to me of course!
I am fascinated by your articles some of which I have read.  You write like the famous writer R. K. Narayanan whom I met briefly when he visited USA.  You speak your mind and are not afraid to say what you think.  You are full of wit and humor and your eloquence in writing is very evident.”
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The purpose of my quoting this mail is to tell you, how even our own people, once they are here, give importance for their health . Health care is extremely expensive here and not only that,  who will take care of us if we are constrained to stay in bed, even for a week or two? Sri. Ramanathan Anna, at 80 is teaching Yoga and you know how  tuned his body should be to perform and teach difficult asanas ! I hope to meet him this week end and I am sure he will be driving his own vehicle. I told you recently about an American who told that his first wife , at 95, is driving her car through the busy New York city roads. I see here many men and women in their eighties and nineties, coming to Walmart , driving their own cars and I am sure they will be cooking their own food and maintaining their houses
Many of us in India, men of the present generation,even at 50 or 60, cannot sit on ‘sukhasanam’ just cross-legged on floor. Our elders could maintain their body much better, because of  walking and other physical movement involved in their  day to day work. There was no need for them to go to Jim.
With better medical facilities and lesser superstitious beliefs, our elders would have seen more moons.
It is imperative that we should start loving our life for which loving our body is the first step. where ever we are, in India or outside, we should  realize that self-dependency is the best , however well you are treated by your children or other kin .

A strong body, a strong mind, a disciplined life- these should be our first priority.
Baltimore,
May 21, 2011
 

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Sasthapreeties

Friends,
My most revered Bramashrees, who often feed us with palpayasam, paladaipradaman and other delicious dishes including NS anna’s inchipulli and uppilittathu, in the form of enlightening posts are advocating discontinuance of delicious meals for Sasthapreeties , for my misfortune.
I have gone all the way up to Noorani village in Palakkad just to enjoy the delicious food next in importance only to the soul-stirring Sastha pattu, sung so sincerely, mind and throat soaked in pristine bakthi. I never miss attending sastapreethi of our Subramania samajam in Hyderabad and enjoy the varieties of food . There is a joy in waiting for the  food and push the tummies of others with my elbows and also get the same treatment from others!  If I can wait at the frontage of an American eating house despite advance booking why not here along with our asmadies whom we meet only on such occasions.
Fun apart , wastage has to be avoided, Que has to be maintained and discipline has to be strictly followed but your suggestion to replace the conventional vazai elai with plastic plates- no, sirs; not for sasthapreethies. There is a joy in eating on the plantain leaves. And  why remove the tables, Unless you want to trouble arthritics like me ?
You don’t allow me to wander or spill food and water or spoil the floor and don’t give me a chance to misbehave with the women by providing me a seat near them. But my respected Annayyas, don’t deprive me the varieties of food to enjoy which primarily I attend a sasthapreeti. I am fed up eating Ammalu’s molakoottal and paruppu thokayal and when I get a rare opportunity for a welcome change what pleasure do you get by depriving it ?
You know how I controlled the crowd rushing for food while I was in charge on a few occasions ? The ayyappa on whom the God manifested , shaking his body as if he had a mild electric shock, and gulping tender coconut water in gallons, called me near him and throwing a hand-full of viboothy, holy ash  on my face,  screamed,  “Sivasamy, varisaya nikkatha valukku verum chukkolam kodu, prasadam ventam” – Provide only hot water and not food for those who do not stand in the Que ”  I thanked him for his command as I had prompted .
That worked!
Let us refine and reform such rare occasions of our group assembly in whatever way we can but not discard the main essence of those which will render them life-less. Yes, you may ridicule me but I am not ashamed to reiterate that serving variates of food is an essential segment of sasthapreethy celebration.
Love and regards,
sperinkulam
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” For a full-belly feast of festive food, why not consent to be one of the Veda-Brahmanas at a shraddham piously performed for a guhasthaa’s pithrus in the orthodox manner?”
” This is my revered elder brother’s  flowery way of saying ”Ippadi enkal kazuthai arukkarathukku badhil , sradham chappida pom.”
I will do so happily but which grihastha will provide me the sastapreethi type of  delicious food ? Inchi thokayalum, paavakkai pitalavum, vazhaithandu thoranum, for me, are not ‘festive food’ .
There is another problem.
” The painful part might be that, prior to that, you need to spend some twelve entirely enjoyable and satisfying years slowly and surely imbibing the appropriate Samskurtham texts, practising proper uccharippu, correct prayogam, achieving detachment of mind and elevation of spirit “
Now, back again with my kazhutharukkal:
I have a few regrets in life and one of them is that I did not study vedam.
” On pattan ethra periya vedabrahmanan; Mataya, nee ippidiyanaeyda ” My father used to lament almost every day at the end of his class, but not before twisting my ear for my ‘ucharana asudhi ‘ pronunciation flaw.  He lost hope on me and though he wanted me to join in the Kalpathy veda patasala , reluctantly put me in the Olavakkode padathu school.
Later, while returning from the Govt. Victoria College, many evenings, I had spent waiting before the Chathappuram patasala enjoying the veda recitations by kids, regretting my lost chance to learn vedam.  Much later, seeing my vaadyar alighting from his  car, a thick golden chain inquiring ‘ kusalaprasnam’ with his rich abdomen and his ‘kadukkans’ glistening from his prominent earlobes ,  I started studying vedam from him and after a couple of classes , my Guru wanted to repeat the remarks of my father  but respecting my age, politely suggestd, ”Anna, eanthirum. ithu omakku othukkolathu “‘ Please get up; this doesn’t suit you.
Thus I lost a golden opportunity for the ‘entirely enjoyable and satisfying years’ and the following fruits thereof.
I wanted to make an attempt again but Anna  stipulates that I should ” achieve detachment of mind and elevation of spirit “
No sir, detachment of mind is NOT possible in this life as my mind is inseparably attached with all good things in life including the GOD.
My salutation to Anna, for several things but not the least for his ability to sit on the floor and enjoy his food on a vazhai elai at his advanced and admirable age . But, why he alone should have the benefit of vazai elai luxury is my innocent and certainly not a tongue -in cheek question.
Fascinated by the attractions in the swimming pools of West,  I took a vow to learn swimming at 60 plus and succeeded to some extent . Attempting to fulfill one of the many wishes of my wife, who was a gold medalist in music , I am now leaning music at 70 +
Who knows that at 80+ I might again make a last attempt to study vedam .
‘ Will you live that long ?’, I see the smile on your face. I am sure I will, as long as  Guruvayurappan continues to allow me to carry on with my kazhutharukkal and you all tolerate my mischief.
‘ How do you know that we are tolerating ?’ Your next valid query.
You are- otherwise my Anna would have clicked the ‘delete’ button , the moment he see my name on the screen!.
Love and regards,

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Is it necessary to gold-plate the idols of worship?

The bright metal- covered idols in the sanctum of temples, dazzling in the light of brass lamps, instantly attract devotees and act as a spiritual stimulant but also unfortunately, they become an unwanted shield for the artistic talents of the sculpture, who would have carved them with utmost  attention and unstinting devotion. He would have spent several days and nights imagining minute details of every curve and straight line and when the figure takes the shape as he wanted it to be, he would have again spent several days and nights enjoying its beauty. All these are gone in a moment the idol is given a coat, albeit attractive. I dread to imagine the admirably carved Ananthpadmanabha statue in Thiruvanathapuram, wrapped in  gold-sheet .  whatever its sheen , at one strike, the misplaced enthusiasts would have deprived the devotees the heavenly charm of the face , trunk and limbs of  Padmanabha the Paramapurusha, the ocean of grace and beauty, had they thoughtlessly and mercilessly wrapped the statue with a glittering metal cover.  I have read somewhere that the statue in fact,  is covered with gold but if so, the plating is done so skillfully , with appropriate herbal treatment that the original beauty is retained and  the luster of gold is concealed .
I have almost wept while looking at the multi color-washed idols decorating the magnificent temple towers, gopurams, mostly in Tamilnadu. What a merciless devastation man’s salty imagination has caused to the minutely carved mini statues ! Mercifully most of the Kerala temples are spared from this cruelty.
Just as human body looks most beautiful devoid of clothing, though for practical reasons it is necessary to cover them, it is better to leave the idols for worship, with minimum covering . This is not to underestimate the skill of goldsmiths but they have their limitations where as, for the sculpture sky is the limit.
This is purely a personal opinion and I am sure that some may not agree with me. Anyway, this is a matter worth debating and it is for the knowledgeable to look into the sanctity aspect too.
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WHAT ABOUT THE Rs.600 Crore worth gold temple in Vellore ? People in India are suffering in the hands of the political rulers and some dont even have a loin cloth or a cup of tea  in a day. Yet Indians can find money to make a non speaking. non existing, dirty god Gold Temple? When yu pray you are talking to god and if god talks to you, you have schizophrenia.
Atheist Natarajan – Canada

I am afraid, Shri NaT Rajan, has lost the essence of what Shri Sivasubramanian Perinkulam was driving home at.
Shri Perinkulam was pointing out that devotees and enthusiasts, in trying to cover sculptures and images with
gold plating were depriving them of their sheer natural beauty.  It was the lamentation of an artist and if I  am permitted to say so, it was not the outburst of an iconoclast.
Shri Nat Rajan has the freedom to be a believer, agnostic or atheist, as per his conviction. I respect him for that. If a Rupees six hundred crores golden temple, deprives the poor of a loin cloth or their cups of tea, a billion dollar mansion in a city is equally an anachronism, in the midst of millions struggling for shanties. I do not hold any brief for the promoters of the Golden Temple. I don’t venerate there. I was merely pointing out that oddities could be found everywhere.
V.Mahadevan

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Sagotra marriages

To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 18:35:33 +0530
[Iyer123] Sagotra marriages

Friends,
To vehemently oppose the far and few sagotra marriages taking place in our iyer community and  confuse the parents who would like to consider such options for their children is nothing but throwing a monkey wrench into the works. Our children are already tied with several outdated ideas and  restrictions which stunted their growth and narrowed their vision. Instead of being led through the ‘rajamaargam’ the royal pathway of the great values of our scintillating past by removing the impurities accumulated during the long journey of the Ganges of our culture, we justify them just because our elders followed them, under entirely different circumstances.
Things are changing fast. I was there to watch the launch of the latest space shuttle, Atlantis, on 14th of this month ,from the Kennedy space center. Six bold men were in that .They did not bother to verify whether it was Rahu Kalam or Gulika kalam when they entered, risking their life,  into that complicated machinery which will take them into space, millions of miles away from their home.Then why do we worry pacing the floor area between our kitchen and hall when our grandchild has to appear for a written and oral test for his LKG, at an inauspicious day,the time fixed by the son of a slug or snail ?
മാറ്റുവിന്‍ ചട്ടങ്ങളെ നിങ്ങള്‍ നിങ്ങല്ലെകിലോ
മാറ്റും അവകളീ  നിങ്ങളെത്താന്‍
Roared Mahakavi Kumaran Assan
If you don’t change those (outdated) rules, they will remove you( from the scene for ever)
That is happening. We are already removed from the center scene. Because of our ‘touch- me- not’ attitude, our children are waiting with begging bowls in front of the education institutions, in front of job opportunities..They are bowing their heads because of our obstinacy.
I am giving below my personal experience and I do not advocate that you follow this and acquire the anger of your ancestor and condemnation of the elders of this forum..
My only daughter is married to a sagotra boy from a cultured Telugu Vaishnava family and they are living  happily,and I live with them now, thanks to the blessings of Guruvayoorappan and my ancestors including that great ancestor ‘Kousika’ from whom my daughter and son in law are believed to have originated.(wonder whether my Kousika thatha bothered to verify the gotram of Menaka before he fell into her cool,
celestial arms ) There was no need for me to take even medical opinion because iyer-iyenagar mixing would have never happened in the past ruling out the possibility of problems due to Consanguinity.
Thirty years ago,I performed the wedding of my last sister with another iyengar boy and now there are three iyengar samabandies for me projecting prominent namams on religious functions. All those mix-up have produced well behaving,well educated decent offspring.
We are closing more doors and windows instead of opening them to the airy and flowery garden outside. Varnasrama dharma is dead and gone, why are we making so much noise on that? Are we now ruled by kshatriyas and served by soodras?. We are serving them. We are waiting with a cup of tea for them to sip at their leisure. With a file stuck in the arm pit, we run after them when they mount a platform to abuse our community. Then where is that ‘dharamam’ ? We are bargaining for our ‘coolie’ wages,by the side of a dead body; we are selling cooked food. We are giving our daughters to chicken -eating-chiranjeevies, after washing their feet with sanctified water ! And we call others as ‘pariahs’ and patties,dogs, because they eat meat!.
And before I take leave of you,I am happy to inform you that I have two normal healthy, sparkling, vibrant,naughty grand children from my daughter and what a relief “They are neither animal, bird or butterfly.  Or slug or snail”. Elders,
Sorry to waste your valuable time with my personal matters.
Meet you again if the moderator circulates this post and allows to continue  this ‘paraya’ in this forum. Otherwise we will meet in other forums till they also throw me out or through my website, where  I am publishing this article.
And to elders with ‘abhivadaye’   let us debate, argue forcefully But let us  not use abusive language about any one in this forum and  especially those from  other communities. If we do that we will not last long. Viji and Prakash will then have plenty of  time to spend with their families instead of struggling to screen our posts and scratch their heads.
Love and regards,
sperinkulam
This was in response to Sri.Narayanswamy Subrmanian’s post on 19th May,2010 and a few others on the subject whether one can marry with in the same gotram.‏
If the Jews, Christians and Muslims are correct, everyone living today in this world was born as a result of repeated and continuing incest.  Approved, ordained, and sanctified by God.  Unedr the doctrine:  “Go ye forth, and multiply!”

Eve came from Adam’s rib.  Their children inter-mated, i.e. brothers mated with sisters.  And so on ad nauseam.  Same as any animal, bird or butterfly.  Or slug or snail.
Mrs Saroja Ramakrishnan, cheenu @ coimbatore, and others who want to kick over our shasthric practice of identifying ourselves as siblings belonging to the same gothram, are in good company with Adam and Eve and their descendants.
Mrs Saroja Ramakrishnan, cheenu @ coimbatore, and others who want to kick over our shasthric practice of identifying ourselves as siblings belonging to the same gothram, are in good company with Adam and Eve and their descendants.
Re Chgeenu’s query.  If a Brahmin family belonging to the Bhaaradwaaja gothram adopts a female puppy, gives it the name of Mahalakshmi, would it not become a human Brahmin virgin eligible to marry a non-Bhaaradwaaja Brahmin boy ?  Mutatis mutandis, same applies to adopted humans.
S Narayanaswamy Iyer
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CC: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 23:51:57 -0700
EXTRACT
At the outset let me admit that my views are irrelevant and I don’t qualify to give an informed opinion on this tricky question. So I am going public with my views with great trepidation and hesitation.I humbly seek pardon in advance from those who may find my views distasteful. Simply ignore me please but do not flame me!
In brief:

Shasti Srinivasan’s views appeal to me. I would like to lend a sympathetic chord. He is doing truly yoeman’s service. All strength to his noble eblow!
n these modern days when geographical, and cultural borders are crumbling, when even race and religion are becoming irrelevant to some among our younger generation, caste has already become irrelevant to many among our younger folks, and marriages between Iyers/Iyengars/Maadhavaas/ Smarthas and also marriages to non brahmins are becoming common, getting deeper into Gothra,Nakshatram, etc.  while not undesirable per se, need not cause so much  friction among us elders, who are any way not in the race for marriage and not eligible too. Why should we sit in judgment over what rules future generations should follow regarding marriages? We have glossed over so many practices that are not exactly per our community’s norms and Shaastras as a necessary compromise with modern times. But in this matter of Gotra, we are raising hell !
fully support the views of those who point out the absurdity of allowing a marraige to the Athai’s son or Mama’s daughter but throw a fit on Sagothra marriage under the guise of genetic dangers. So what if the gothra of your Maama’s daughter or Athai’s son is different? Genetically are they not nearer? Yet marraiges between cousins is rampant among our community
.Purely from genetic considerations, if two generations are checked, three if possible or practical and there is no blood relation, I would recommend we simply go ahead and not worry too much about Gothra. A blood test (for blood group, aids etc) is more relevant but who considers that these days?
I would also like to consider the possibility that some one suggested that same Gothra merely means that thousands of years ago, a group of persons were disciples of a particular Rishi. They were not necessarily his progeny. So “Sagothra” does not necessarily mean a genetic connection. And neither does the fact that the Gothra’s are different preclude totally a genetic connection.
I am also appalled at some “stars” being considered “untouchables”
I am shocked to hear that Kettai is not a fancied star.
Thank God I did not know this in 1975.
My wife is a “Kettai” and is the star of my life!
We have had a happy marriage for 36 years so far.
I am also amused to hear that Aayilyam is dangerous!
To conclude:
I have no problem with a Sagotra marriage if no blood relationship is obvious. I will adopt this as my policy when my son (who is still too young) gets ready for marriage. However I wonder if I will ever get a chance to participate in the process of selection of a suitable bride for him. Like most modern youngsters, he may select on his own. I will be content if he informs me and seeks my blessings which will be readily given, irrespective of Gotra and Nakshatra.
At the same time, I respect the views of those who feel Gotra is an issue on which there can be no compromise. I will merely like to agree to disagree with them and opt out of a debate with them. I have no compulsive desire or need to convince them.  However, I am distressed at the rather strong views expressed by one of us who suggested that we  should boycott such marriages! I am sure even if we do, the happy couple will not miss us one bit! I take solace in the fact that merely boycotting has been suggested, not beheading as the Khap Panchayats wish to do.
Regards to all
GV
-Dear Friends,
I am touched  by the outpouring supporting/justifying and divergent views by Members of this esteemed Forum, Honorable GV, GSubramanian  and  Perumkulam — you are not my personal friend(s), that I know of or met over the years, but this great debate on the above subject has  brought us together.
I don’t consider we are friends just because you agree and vote for, or give your favorable opinions, but you do so freely, frankly and fearlessly, in our Brahmin Society, “mildly endorsing” Sagothram wedding celebrations, in the context of where and how we are and the society we live in and a set of very  changed circumstances, in this modern day and age that we  live in, many of us, far and wide away from  our distant Motherland, not knowing what to do with our children of  marriageable age who have gone out in several directions to make an eking in what they believe is  “a land of opportunity” — it could be U.S.A, Canada, U.K. Australia and/or Middle East, Western  European countries like France, Germany and Norway, where parents of  children of marraigeable are, with parents pleading helplessly to get their children married; whose cause, I am seeking to serve through this Forum; some of you like GV, G. Balasubramanian, and  Perumkulam putting your reputation at stake in voicing your valuable opinions in  such Public Forums where you have been held in  high  esteem by our Members  and others, like G.V.S Iyer (Purohit) or our Vaadhiyar who has somewhat of divergent (different) in his views, very vociferous to his fatih and beliefs that he has to practice every day, giving out his opinions as “an authority and scholar well versed in our shastras” as he ekes out his living, as a “Purohit”  with his dissenting views on this matter, which also I greatly admire, value and respect!
And our friend, Kim Ramachandran (a long time Native American Resident) who has voiced his “line item veto” like the U.S. Congress wanted to give our U.S. President but each party voted it down whether the other Party’s President was in power,  “for or “against” each line item comment by the Learned Purohit  (Vaadhiyaar),  GVS Iyer
My children, daughter and son are happily married and settled in life,  by God’s grace and blessings!  It is  not their cause that I am advocating or pleading for or championing to promote!  It is your cause, people’s cause, parents of boys and girls of marriageable age, living in  the U.S. Canada, U.K. Europe, Middle East, Australia and NZ, the world over!  And when I connect a boy and girl of marraiageable age, in a distant, remote and far away land, where I see a “ray hope” of marriage between the  two “jeevans” coming together and “tieing a knot”, and then a parent of the boy or gal comes and axes, “but we are Sagothram” or closes out the conversation with an abrupt remark “but that the Naksthram, Moolam, Ayilyam, Kettai and Pooradam, are not on the list of Naksthrams that our Astrologer gaveus as matching stars with that of their son or daughter”, or “we are Vadakalai Iyengars and they are Vadamas, Madhwas, Ashtasahasram, Brahacharnam“,  that is what puts a closure to my whole effort and I see my efforts at the prospect of  a  “matrimony” once and for all “dimming” for that boy and girl; it pains my heart, making  me feel that I, as a Father of that boy or girl,  “losing” the battle to get them married and see a happy culmination of a wedding celebration fade! In my Life Time!  In Your Life Time!

Parents, I appeal to you, don’t let us happen to your children!
Respectfully yours,
VSrinivasan
3614 Columbia Blvd
Garland, Texas 7503-2246
tel: 001-972-840-3495
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———- Forwarded message ———-
From: Mahadevan Venkitasubbiar <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Iyer123] Sagotra Marriages
To: iyer123 <[email protected]>
For the past few days, one has been regularly reading in this forum, arguments and counter- arguments prohibiting Sagothra Marriages. Perhaps, this topic has assumed added significance because of almost a national debate on the subject, provoked by recent happenings in Haryana.
The protaganists of the “Prohibit Sagothra Marriages”, believe that those belonging to the same Gothras come within the  prohibited relationship and therefore such marriges would not be in the interest of the offspring.They also argue that this is in conformity with Hindu Marriages Act.
The same group of people vehemently argue in favour of uncles marrying nieces or cousins (children of brothers and sisters) marrying each other, citing traditions.
Let us now examine the relevant provisions of  Hindu Marriage Act. Section 2 of this Act, defines the prohibited relationships. Among others,the following are prohibited relationships:
brothers and sisters
Uncle and niece
aunts and nephews
children of brothers and sisters
Thus, under the Hindu Marriages Act, an uncle marrying his niece or children of brothers and sisters marrying each other, come within the prohibited degree. Yet, we have no qualms in encouraging these marriages (particularly in South India), because the Hindu Marriage Act has an enabling provision.
Section 5 (iv) says that the marrying persons are not within the degree of prohibited relationship, unless the custom or usage governing each of them permits of a marriage between the two.
Thus, the rule prohibits marrying within the prohibited relationship. But the exception is the custom or usage. We take umbrage under the exception and defy the rule without any qualm. This is how we support the marriage of uncles with nieces or children of brothers and sisters marrying each other.
Medically, in this forum, doctors have averred that consanguinous marriages lead to defective genes in children.
Those who take support from a legal loophole and defying medical opinion, argue in favour of discouraging Sagothra marriage on the ground that it comes wihin the prohibited relationship. There are no scientic evidence to show that unrelated families belonging to same Gothra come within the consanguinous relations. Thus, they are afraid of an unknown consaguinous relationship from same Gothras, but do not hesitate to defy known consanguinous relationships and take shelter under an exception of the Hindu Marriages Act, completely oblivious of the Rule.
I do not advocate Sagothra marriages. I only advocate that if in all respects there is agreement, Sagothra should not stand in the way, except when the consanguinous relationships are known.
On any day, marrying the member from an unrelated family, but belonging to the same Gothra is better than marrying one’s niece or cousin.
V.Mahadevan

———- Forwarded message ———-From: Mahadevan Venkitasubbiar <[email protected]>Date: Tue, May 25, 2010 at 1:56 PMSubject: Re: [Iyer123] Sagotra MarriagesTo: iyer123 <[email protected]>
For the past few days, one has been regularly reading in this forum, arguments and counter- arguments prohibiting Sagothra Marriages. Perhaps, this topic has assumed added significance because of almost a national debate on the subject, provoked by recent happenings in Haryana.   The protaganists of the “Prohibit Sagothra Marriages”, believe that those belonging to the same Gothras come within the  prohibited relationship and therefore such marriges would not be in the interest of the offspring.They also argue that this is in conformity with Hindu Marriages Act. The same group of people vehemently argue in favour of uncles marrying nieces or cousins (children of brothers and sisters) marrying each other, citing traditions. Let us now examine the relevant provisions of  Hindu Marriage Act. Section 2 of this Act, defines the prohibited relationships. Among others,the following are prohibited relationships:     brothers and sisters    Uncle and niece    aunts and nephews    children of brothers and sisters
Thus, under the Hindu Marriages Act, an uncle marrying his niece or children of brothers and sisters marrying each other, come within the prohibited degree. Yet, we have no qualms in encouraging these marriages (particularly in South India), because the Hindu Marriage Act has an enabling provision.
Section 5 (iv) says that the marrying persons are not within the degree of prohibited relationship, unless the custom or usage governing each of them permits of a marriage between the two.
Thus, the rule prohibits marrying within the prohibited relationship. But the exception is the custom or usage. We take umbrage under the exception and defy the rule without any qualm. This is how we support the marriage of uncles with nieces or children of brothers and sisters marrying each other.  Medically, in this forum, doctors have averred that consanguinous marriages lead to defective genes in children. Those who take support from a legal loophole and defying medical opinion, argue in favour of discouraging Sagothra marriage on the ground that it comes wihin the prohibited relationship. There are no scientic evidence to show that unrelated families belonging to same Gothra come within the consanguinous relations. Thus, they are afraid of an unknown consaguinous relationship from same Gothras, but do not hesitate to defy known consanguinous relationships and take shelter under an exception of the Hindu Marriages Act, completely oblivious of the Rule. I do not advocate Sagothra marriages. I only advocate that if in all respects there is agreement, Sagothra should not stand in the way, except when the consanguinous relationships are known.On any day, marrying the member from an unrelated family, but belonging to the same Gothra is better than marrying one’s niece or cousin.  V.Mahadevan


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En me matha

In the olden days too, women had sacrificed their Chastity under various conditions.
Innocence in the initial stage and later, necessity prompted Kunti to accept husbands of divine celebrities other than the human husband ordained for her. Impersonation impelled Ahalya to fall into the hands of a celestial celebrity who was lured by her pristine beauty.  Jabala became polyandrous  due to occupational hazard combined with abject poverty. Ambika and Ambhalika, were forced by their mother-in-law, Satyavathy, to accept Vyasa, as their husband for the purpose of creating a heir for the crown.
Such incidents would have happened earlier too. Human weakness and necessities, like many other things,  have no dates.
So, it was therefore natural for the Rishies to expect the recurrence of such things in the future too and it was in their immense wisdom and practical outlook that they ensured that our pindadhanam, offering to manes reach our biological father.
They never had in their mind my mother or your mother and therefore let us not become emotional while reciting the above mantram. Mantras are common for all, including Jabala Satyakama and Siva  Perinkulam.

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Theft of Hindu symbols and practices

Post by Shri Gopal R. Krishna in Yahoo groups
Dear All,
Hindu symbols, practices and terminology is being stolen and used by christians as part of their evangelical work. Most of you may be aware of it and some of you must be witness to it.
Should that theft contiue? How is safeguarding our personal property different from safeguarding our cultural identity? What should be done? Should any thing be done at all? Is this a fight against the church? Or is it a dialouge to prevent theft? How would you all respond to this theft?
Traditionally it is said that brahmins shy away from confrontation.

But through out history it is brahmins who have provided leadership and initiative in India.
How would brahmins of this community respond to this theft? would you be comfortable in providing back up support if someone takes the initiative?
Regards
Gopal.R.Krishna